An interview with Dr Huberman about the problems of our time — the COVID-19 pandemic, the protests after George Floyd’s death and how we cope

How can the body and breathing help us remain able to act under pressure?

What helps in an acute moment, and which routines strengthen our ability to deal with stress? In this historical conversation, Andrew Huberman connects both questions with the interaction between body and mind.

The answers follow the preserved YouNr1 version of the conversation in an edited translation that conveys their meaning. The context is the pandemic and the social tensions of the time. The intensive breathing sequence is performed safely seated or lying down, never in or near water and never while driving.

The tools we use are crucial at times like these.

Huberman: My laboratory has been deeply absorbed in understanding what influences our minds and bodies. The reason is that we all want to wake up rested and motivated to meet the challenges ahead. Sometimes we need to be quiet and listen; sometimes we need to push hard. We want to fall asleep easily at night and be able to concentrate.

Question: So mental and physical states really determine what we call successful performance in life. And we are talking about success from a broad perspective: not only financial and professional success, but relationships, emotional life and so on. What defines the states of the body and mind?

Huberman: I started asking myself that question about a decade ago. It is like a contract between the mind and body to align in a particular way and fulfil a shared purpose at that moment. That purpose might be to meet the demands of listening, showing empathy or pursuing our current goal with determination.

We wanted to understand how to influence physical and mental states. As we know, people already do things to reach particular states, such as consuming caffeine, exercising and meditating.

These activities act on the nervous system: the brain, spinal cord and nerve connections throughout the body. This system links mental and physical states.

I do not separate body and mind when discussing these states. Both need to be directed towards the same task. If the mind is in one place and the body in another, that alignment — that congruence — is missing.

If we really want to bring body and mind efficiently into a desired state, we need to honour what I call the contract. The tools science has revealed to us follow this contract of communication between the body and mind.

Question: To explore the nervous system a little further: why can someone “sleep” for seven or eight hours and still wake up without their nervous system having recovered, particularly under sustained stress?

Huberman: In the short term, stress is good. I say that because I hope it frees people from worrying whenever their stress level rises. Stress is meant to be cyclical in our lives. We do not want it to remain chronically high or low.

Humans and our nervous systems are well equipped to cope with current events — the pandemic, protests and so on. What should really concern us is chronic stress.

I firmly believe everyone should have at least two kinds of tools for dealing with stress. First, we need real-time, or “online”, tools. One of my laboratory’s central interests has been developing tools that can calm our nervous system quickly.

Question: Is meditation a real-time tool?

In my view, meditation is not a suitable real-time tool during an ongoing conflict: I cannot simply walk away and meditate. In that moment, we need something we can use directly in the situation.

The other kind of tools we need are “offline” tools that raise the threshold at which we encounter stress. It is like raising the lowest point at which a stress response is triggered.

Question: What real-time tool have you been working on?

One such tool is the physiological sigh. We inhale, take in a little more air with a brief second inhalation and then exhale slowly and fully. This pattern also occurs unconsciously. We can use it deliberately when we want to gather ourselves and reduce tension in the moment.

Even one to three repetitions can help. Afterwards, give your body a moment to continue breathing calmly and notice the change.

For people who find it difficult to breathe through their nose because of blocked sinuses, it is fine to perform the sigh through the mouth.

Another interesting area of research is the microbiome. Alongside the microorganisms in the gut, there is a microbial community in the nose. Certain Lactobacillus bacteria appear to be well adapted to that environment.

On the research: in 2020, De Boeck and colleagues described particular Lactobacillus strains in the upper airways and their characteristics. The study focused on the bacteria and their habitat, rather than on a nasal-breathing training programme.

Question: So there are several reasons to take a double inhalation through the nose and a long exhalation through the mouth during the day when you feel stressed. That gives you a real-time tool. What is the science behind it?

Huberman: The second inhalation helps reopen the air sacs in the lungs, while the long exhalation supports gas exchange. To my knowledge, the physiological sigh is among the fastest ways of reducing acute stress. It is a clear example of how we can use the body to influence our mental state.

I want to emphasise that the tools we are discussing focus on using the body to regulate the mind. It is very difficult to control the mind with the mind alone. Remember the contract between body and mind: the body gives us a point of influence through which we can bring the mind into sync with it. Telling ourselves to calm down does not work when we have not honoured that contract. We are asking a stressed mind to relax without attending to the body, which is also under stress.

Question: What about tools for dealing with long-term stress?

Huberman: That brings us to what I call offline tools. These help us cope better with stress, and we will discuss two kinds.

In the self-help and psychology communities, there is a debate about whether we need to teach ourselves to calm down or train ourselves to tolerate a higher threshold before something feels stressful.

The two approaches address the same problem in different ways. Mindfulness meditation, yoga nidra and similar practices train relaxation. You learn to find a calm state again and can carry it into daily life more easily. “Resetting” is a useful image for this: moving from sustained activation back into a restorative state.

There are also activating practices, such as a series of twenty-five deeper breaths followed by a pause in breathing. Here, you experience a deliberately introduced physical stressor and practise handling that activation. The aim is to remain capable of acting in stressful situations later on.

It is like driving on a bumpy road for the first time. It is unsettling because we have never experienced anything like it. After travelling those roads several times, however, we move with the bumps because we are used to them and they no longer trouble us. The same applies to exercises that raise our threshold for what we experience as stress.

If you live with chronic stress, you might ask yourself whether you are doing things that reduce stress in the moment or things that raise the bar for what your body and mind consider stressful.

I personally practise yoga nidra in the morning: deep relaxation with deliberately directed attention. Afterwards, I often experience a shift in my mental state and outlook. I particularly like how accessible it is: you can practise at home without equipment.

I also use an activating breathing protocol of this kind on about five days a week.

Question: How is this activating breathing sequence described?

Huberman: It is described as a series of about twenty-five deep inhalations, each followed by a relaxed exhalation. After the final exhalation comes a brief pause of roughly fifteen to thirty seconds, or until the urge to breathe. The pause is not forced. Normal breathing then resumes.

In the work being done at that time, people reported feeling both alert and calm after further rounds. We were interested in whether this could train their response to later pressures: remaining calm when the situation around them becomes unsettled.

It is a deliberately introduced challenge to help us cope better with stressful situations if they arise.

Question: How does this exercise relate to neuroscience?

Huberman: What interests me in my laboratory is a unified theory of how breathing influences mental states. We can understand those states only by considering factors such as the balance of carbon dioxide and oxygen and the levels of neurochemicals. What people ultimately want, however, are tools for reaching the mental states they are seeking.

Neuromodulators such as dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin influence how larger networks of nerve cells work together. This changes attention, motivation and the way we respond to social experiences, among other things.

Much emphasis has been placed on individual brain regions, but in reality different regions work together to produce a particular effect. Neuromodulators are the connections that bring those different parts together, like strings on a piano.

Question: Is there a correct way to breathe when performing a sigh or an oxygenating breathing exercise?

Huberman: The diaphragm and the other breathing muscles work automatically, yet we can also influence them voluntarily. That is what makes breathing a special connection between the body and conscious action. It is worth regularly noticing how we are breathing and what state that breathing supports.

Question: How can people find out what you do in your laboratory?

Huberman: I publish podcasts and videos, translating findings from our laboratory into accessible material, for example in live conversations on Instagram. In the version of this conversation recorded at the time, I also mentioned a planned book with a target publication year of 2021.

My mission more broadly is to discover scientific knowledge and make it understandable so that people can learn, apply it and then teach the essentials to others. That brings me to a gentle request. I strongly believe in watching one, doing one and teaching one. If we learn a technique and like it, we should teach it to someone else. I believe there is a serious need for tools that are free, quick and based on physiology and neuroscience.

Further sources

• Huberman Lab — Breathwork Protocols for Health, Focus & Stress
• De Boeck et al. (2020) — Lactobacilli Have a Niche in the Human Nose